Curse

Thom Bangalter · Apr 17, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

It's really best that I say it:

BLOOD SPIKE OWNZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Avarre · Apr 17, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShneakySquirrel

I'm well aware of what most people think about spikes, but I'd like to hear what people say about a team who loses to a spike, when they should have the stuff to beat the spike.

You need to actually beat good teams first. Even then, the world will know that you still stood around counting down to do it.

yesitsrob · Apr 17, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

I'm sorry but on the ownzzz scale - Es > TARD.

Tombs is 8v8 again by the way.

tunabreath · Apr 17, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

9/10 for entertainment. this thread really made me laugh.

Blame the Monks · Apr 17, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

I don't see much of a difference between winning with a gimmick pressure build vs a gimmick spike. To me, what blows is the fact so many teams win by p/r/s or map rather than the skill of the players. This is a major flaw of GW imo -- mindless aoe spam, mindless hex spam, mindless skills like conjures, any of the dozens of mindless spikes... Basically any build where a player can win because his bar is so much easier to play and one dimensional and yet he can still often win even against superior players.

I want to win games based on skill, not build. GW is loaded with overpowered gimmicky skills, individual bars that take little skill yet are effective, and so many spike skills you can protect with mantra + ward, which is why I think Izzy should be fired. >.<

more skills that scale based on the skill of the player, fewer skills that autowin unless they have the counter
more skills that scale based on your teamwork in using a skill in the right situation, less skills that scale based on the number of copies in the team
more skills that take judgement to use, less skills that you spam on recharge
more skill based shutdown, less overload and zerg
more reward for players that bring skills that allow smart, creative players to make good plays with, less reward for people who invent or clone the next imba fotm
more defense based on anticipation, communication, and timing and less passive defense

More skills like dshot, less skills like blackout
more skills like deep freeze, less skills like searing lames
more skills like frenzy, less skills like splinter weapon + conjure
more skills like boardhead arrow, less skills like ebon dust
more skills like diversion, less skills like migraine + phant + images
more skills like gaurdian, less skills like aegis or wards
more skills like ZB, less skills like spirit light
more bars like shock axe warriors, less like burst sins
more bars like burning rangers, less like ritualist spiker spammers
more teams like eFs championship build, less teams like sbri

Basically, promote well designed, skill based classes and skills and discourage skillless gimmicky classes and skills. I'm getting sick of writing this, but god damn its frustrating that we all want the game to improve and changes don't seem to be coming.

/rant

P.S. Well, maybe not fired but he needs to get to work. He did a damn good job in the initial design, but its been going downhill for almost a year now...

urania · Apr 17, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

more skills like boardhead arrow, less skills like ebon dust

oh rly?

bha takes skills..?

like...

1)go into point-blank position (possibly cripple the target first too)
2)shoot the arrow
3)viola! u have rendered the monk (or any other caster) useless - unless they've dodged the arrow (which is plain impossible if the ranger goes into point-blank position) - untill the cond has been removed.

imo bha is more of a gimmick as eda...especially since it's an enchantement.

same goes for ZB. I like the skill quite a lot and would gladly see its nerf being undone, but it was too spammable.
now one actually has to use with SOME care, at least.

Blame the Monks · Apr 17, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

One conditional application is much more healthy than dozens of spammed applications. And if you have the kind of enchant removal to pull a 20s recharge EDA off on top of the conjures, prots, and other shit, you fail.

Mental Leteci · Apr 17, 2007, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShneakySquirrel

I'm hardly getting owned. You guys say it's talentless, and I highly doubt you'd be able to run a spike equally as well as a spike guild. It's a different style of play, and you bitch about it.

I think we would run it better than a spike guild.

Byron · Apr 17, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

To answer the question the thread asks, I don't think spikes will garner any more or less respect than they already do. Maybe a good guild pulls a spike out of their bag-o-tricks, and we could call that clever. Otherwise, any sucess from spikes will probably be greeted with scorn and disapproval, as is the norm.

Just a point of concern: guilds that run spikes never last long. I mean, never ever ever. Yeah, I think even the proprietors of spike builds feel scrubby.

Patccmoi · Apr 17, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

One conditional application is much more healthy than dozens of spammed applications. And if you have the kind of enchant removal to pull a 20s recharge EDA off on top of the conjures, prots, and other shit, you fail.

More skills like Concussion Shot, less skills like BHA imo. Concussion Shot has a high energy cost to offset the daze and requires an interrupt so a skilled player can make good use of it while a less skilled player is likely to just burn his energy pointlessly. Very high energy cost + low recharge is much better imo because THAT rewards player skill above all.

I like skills that have a conditional to work, i think those reward player skill the most. And by conditional i don't mean 'must be enchanted', i mean like interrupts, target is moving, target is attacking, etc. For example i think that Cripshot would be more interesting at 10E with a slightly longer cripple duration but only crippling moving targets.

BHA conditional is negated by getting in the face of your target, and honestly Rangers with Natural Stride don't have much trouble doing that.

Neo-LD · Apr 17, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

I don't see much of a difference between winning with a gimmick pressure build vs a gimmick spike. To me, what blows is the fact so many teams win by p/r/s or map rather than the skill of the players. This is a major flaw of GW imo -- mindless aoe spam, mindless hex spam, mindless skills like conjures, any of the dozens of mindless spikes... Basically any build where a player can win because his bar is so much easier to play and one dimensional and yet he can still often win even against superior players.

I want to win games based on skill, not build. GW is loaded with overpowered gimmicky skills, individual bars that take little skill yet are effective, and so many spike skills you can protect with mantra + ward, which is why I think Izzy should be fired. >.<

more skills that scale based on the skill of the player, fewer skills that autowin unless they have the counter
more skills that scale based on your teamwork in using a skill in the right situation, less skills that scale based on the number of copies in the team
more skills that take judgement to use, less skills that you spam on recharge
more skill based shutdown, less overload and zerg
more reward for players that bring skills that allow smart, creative players to make good plays with, less reward for people who invent or clone the next imba fotm
more defense based on anticipation, communication, and timing and less passive defense

More skills like dshot, less skills like blackout
more skills like deep freeze, less skills like searing lames
more skills like frenzy, less skills like splinter weapon + conjure
more skills like boardhead arrow, less skills like ebon dust
more skills like diversion, less skills like migraine + phant + images
more skills like gaurdian, less skills like aegis or wards
more skills like ZB, less skills like spirit light
more bars like shock axe warriors, less like burst sins
more bars like burning rangers, less like ritualist spiker spammers
more teams like eFs championship build, less teams like sbri

Basically, promote well designed, skill based classes and skills and discourage skillless gimmicky classes and skills. I'm getting sick of writing this, but god damn its frustrating that we all want the game to improve and changes don't seem to be coming.

/rant

P.S. Well, maybe not fired but he needs to get to work. He did a damn good job in the initial design, but its been going downhill for almost a year now...

Considering that this is exactly what I've been saying for the last few weeks/months, and what I recently spent ~7 pages arguing for in the skill update thread: QFTMFT. Reward player skill.

If Guild Wars was advertised on the tagline, "victory with skill, not time spent", why is it so difficult to extend that to "victory with skill, not build used"? This is a necessary measure for Guild Wars to become the best competitive game it can be.

There are a few minor things that I disagree with... but Im just nitpicking, really ;p

- You praise EuroHex (eF's build), yet it contains many elements which you criticize. (spammed necro hexes, migraine/conj/images, avatar of melandru... some newer versions have conjures, aegises, etc) So while there are alot of good things in eF's build that do reward player skill, but there are still alot of things that dont.

- Blackout is definately in the category with DShot, Diversion & co., not with Searing Flames and Ritualist spirits. It definately rewards player skill more than Deep Freeze and Broadhead, both of which you listed in your 'good' category.

- Wards in like Ward Melee are easy to use, but I think Ward Vs Foes rewards positioning very well. So I wouldnt generalize about all wards not rewarding skill.

tomcruisejr · Apr 17, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

If you can get gold cape with only bloodspike, you will be the greatest guild ever.

urania · Apr 17, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

More skills like Concussion Shot, less skills like BHA imo. Concussion Shot has a high energy cost to offset the daze and requires an interrupt so a skilled player can make good use of it while a less skilled player is likely to just burn his energy pointlessly. Very high energy cost + low recharge is much better imo because THAT rewards player skill above all.

BHA conditional is negated by getting in the face of your target, and honestly Rangers with Natural Stride don't have much trouble doing that.

agreed.

unlike bha, u can't spam conc on recharge.

lord of shadow · Apr 17, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

If you can get gold cape with only bloodspike, you will be the greatest guild ever.

QFT
12345678910

Patrograd · Apr 17, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

More skills like dshot, less skills like blackout
more skills like deep freeze, less skills like searing lames
more skills like frenzy, less skills like splinter weapon + conjure
more skills like boardhead arrow, less skills like ebon dust
more skills like diversion, less skills like migraine + phant + images
more skills like gaurdian, less skills like aegis or wards
more skills like ZB, less skills like spirit light
more bars like shock axe warriors, less like burst sins
more bars like burning rangers, less like ritualist spiker spammers
more teams like eFs championship build, less teams like sbri

...

Top class rant imo

Ensign · Apr 17, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Spike guilds that get anywhere usually have one player who is decent at Guild Wars. That would be the person who directs the team to do stuff.

When you play a 321spike build you're removing your ability to execute strategy and tactics beyond a small, predetermined set, and render your individual players incapable of autonomous gameplay. If those are the limits of your players, great, play 321spike and you'll get further than you would playing a build that required players to execute on their own and on the fly. But I can tell you that playing a spike build, with good players, is so painful. You absolutely hate it when you can see the tactics neccessary to beat a team, but can't execute them because your build lacks the tools, and you're stuck on a POS spiker instead of a character that can do something.

If your team can pull off decent balanced builds successfully, pulling a spike out of nowhere can be a good call to catch someone unaware. But if all a team can do is countdown spike, there's really nothing to think about...they can't pull off tactics even if they switch to a build with the tools, so you just have to beat the simplest strategy in the game. If you can't when you know it's coming, well, you should probably be running spike.

Peace,
-CxE

Divineshadows · Apr 17, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShneakySquirrel

And Phelann, don't you feel a little silly posting "You suck" over and over? You have no legitimate argument.

And you sir have no legitimate thread. I don't see anyone else on the forums opening "hey, acknowledge me; I want to feel important; I don't suck at this game" threads and having them stay open this long. I think the only reason it stayed open as long as it did is due to the fact that you tried to disguise the true intentions of the thread with a title that makes it seem like there would actually be something to discuss.